View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Irish Murphy
Joined: 28 Jan 2018 Posts: 47 Location: Upstate SC
|
Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:43 pm Post subject: When were shoulder harnesses commonly used in NASCAR? |
|
|
Anyone know when shoulder harnesses became the norm in NASCAR?[/b] |
|
Back to top |
|
|
odcics2
Joined: 09 Feb 2018 Posts: 283
|
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Early 60s?
It would be in the Nascar rule book when it was required.
I see those show up on ebay. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
hillybilly
Joined: 14 Mar 2018 Posts: 31
|
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
They were mandated after Joe Weatherly cracked his head on a retaining wall in 1964. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
lizard racing
Joined: 16 Mar 2018 Posts: 2
|
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
There is a u-tube video of Junior Johnson going over his '63 Chevy. He said he installed a harness, but NASCAR made him take it out.
I remember Weatherly cracking his head at Riverside in '64. He hit the wall with the left side of the car and his head went out the window. He only had a lap belt. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
George Andrews
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 461
|
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Joe was very concerned about the possibility of being caught in the car if a fire erupted. Thus his reasoning for not wearing a harness, though I have seen a picture of him wearing a diagonal shoulder strap, like passenger cars have today. Don't know if it used a separate latch. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
29-Ford
Joined: 17 May 2018 Posts: 9
|
Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I believe you will find Weathery's death mandated the addition of window nets. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
BrianP
Joined: 28 Jan 2018 Posts: 68
|
Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I thought window nets weren’t mandated until 1970, after Petty wrecked at Darlington. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
George Andrews
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 461
|
Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
BrianP wrote: | I thought window nets weren’t mandated until 1970, after Petty wrecked at Darlington. |
Correct. Though some teams and / or drivers had run window nets before ( or something like one -- I've seen a picture of someone using a piece of expanded metal screen door guard ), the sight of RP's left shoulder & arm flapping out the window was cause for NASCAR to mandate window nets. Some of the early nets were of questionable effectiveness, most were a piece of volleyball netting !!! BTW - the Darlington wreck caused Petty to miss several subsequent races, possibly costing him the 1970 Grand National Championship. His wreck was vicious to the point that some piece of harness or hardware had to have broken for his body to come out the window so far. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
C5HM
Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Posts: 120
|
Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Photos of Joe Weatherly's body being taken from his car at Riverside clearly show that his helmet was unblemished. His head did *not* hit the wall. It is very likely that he died of basal skull fracture...like Earnhardt and many others. The window net came into mandated use in (edit) 1971 after Petty's wreck at Darlington in (Edit) 1970.
Last edited by C5HM on Sun May 20, 2018 10:58 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
odcics2
Joined: 09 Feb 2018 Posts: 283
|
Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
C5HM wrote: | Photos of Joe Weatherly's body being taken from his car at Riverside clearly show that his helmet was unblemished. His head did *not* hit the wall. It is very likely that he died of basal skull fracture...like Earnhardt and many others. The window net came into mandated use after Petty's wreck at Darlington in 1971. |
Typo, you meant 1970. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
George Andrews
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 461
|
Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
C5HM wrote: | Photos of Joe Weatherly's body being taken from his car at Riverside clearly show that his helmet was unblemished. His head did *not* hit the wall. It is very likely that he died of basal skull fracture...like Earnhardt and many others. The window net came into mandated use after Petty's wreck at Darlington in 1971. |
In Bud Moore's Autobiography, pg. 81 - 2nd paragraph a quote from Bud : " He went into the the wall sideways on the driver's side. Turn six was about a 60- or 65 mile-an -hour turn and he got airborne running probably 80 or 90 or more. He hit his head on the wall. " |
|
Back to top |
|
|
C5HM
Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Posts: 120
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
C5HM
Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Posts: 120
|
Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
odcics2 wrote: | C5HM wrote: | Photos of Joe Weatherly's body being taken from his car at Riverside clearly show that his helmet was unblemished. His head did *not* hit the wall. It is very likely that he died of basal skull fracture...like Earnhardt and many others. The window net came into mandated use after Petty's wreck at Darlington in 1971. |
Typo, you meant 1970. |
I actually did mean 1971...because that is when the mandated use of window nets began. But the sentence structure was sloppy. So I have amended it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
George Andrews
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 461
|
Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The first picture linked on, even in low resolution, shows Joe's nose and left eye, with bruising and possible blood flow. The book I'm still trying to find in my collection, has a higher resolution of this same image. As a black & white original, with both his helmet and the track worker's shirt in white, it is difficult to see any damage to the helmet. But there sure was visible damage to Joe's face.
For the sake of Joe's memory, I will end my part of this discussion now. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
C5HM
Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Posts: 120
|
Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This is not a a discussion about anyone’s memory. Rather it is an attempt to set straight one of the many enduring myths in Grand National racing that folks cling to. As noted(in either high or low resolution), Joe’s helmet is undamaged. Ergo, it could not possibly have hit the wall. What you see on Joe’s face is blood...not bruising (the shot is taken just moments after the accident, you will agree). If as you suggest, Joe’s face somehow hit the wall, one would expect the helmet visor to be damaged. It is not.
Basal skull fracture produces exactly that type of massive bleeding. You will note the blood flow down Joe’s Rebel 300 shirt and on to his Chinos. Basal Skull fracture occurs when an un restrained head wants to continue its forward motion when the body it is attached to is strapped in place during sudden deceleration. The skull literally fractures from ear hole to ear hole (across the back of the cranium just above the muscle attachment area) and through the palate...All the major vessels are torn and the blood in them surges out the openings. That is what you see in the photos...What you *do not* see is any evidence of Joe’s head ever having hit the wall...or of blunt force trauma. Same thing happened to Earnhardt, Bonnet and a number of other drivers lost in sudden deceleration accidents/shunts...prior to the HANS device. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Irish Murphy
Joined: 28 Jan 2018 Posts: 47 Location: Upstate SC
|
Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 2:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
C5HM with all due respect I started this post asking about shoulder harnesses not the cause of death of Joe. Perhaps you should start your own thread trying to prove your threory. We can now close this thread. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
C5HM
Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Posts: 120
|
Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Irish Murphy wrote: | C5HM with all due respect I started this post asking about shoulder harnesses not the cause of death of Joe. Perhaps you should start your own thread trying to prove your threory. We can now close this thread. |
And you got your answer, no?
A quick review of the thread will remind when the topic expanded to include Joe’s unfortunate death. And that his death is almost inextricably intertwined with the question you posed.
As to “theories”, I have none. Only the factual record as documented in the photographs from that day.
Perhaps you might realize that there is no need for a separate thread, on the facts that I have just reviewed.
I have been a member here for the best part of a decade. More I think. Not sure that I have ever had anyone suggest they had gotten *too much* historical information in response to a question they posed. At least not before now.
Interesting. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Irish Murphy
Joined: 28 Jan 2018 Posts: 47 Location: Upstate SC
|
Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
C5HM wrote: | Irish Murphy wrote: | C5HM with all due respect I started this post asking about shoulder harnesses not the cause of death of Joe. Perhaps you should start your own thread trying to prove your threory. We can now close this thread. |
And you got your answer, no?
A quick review of the thread will remind when the topic expanded to include Joe’s unfortunate death. And that his death is almost inextricably intertwined with the question you posed.
As to “theories”, I have none. Only the factual record as documented in the photographs from that day.
Perhaps you might realize that there is no need for a separate thread, on the facts that I have just reviewed.
I have been a member here for the best part of a decade. More I think. Not sure that I have ever had anyone suggest they had gotten *too much* historical information in response to a question they posed. At least not before now.
Interesting. | I started my reply to you by being as respectful as I could, obviously you were offended anyway, that was not my intentions. As the OP I feel I have a say in which direction my post goes. I understand how it went in the direction it did but tell me exactly what does the cause of death of little Joe have to do with my original question? So many times threads get hijacked and steered in a direction away from the original post. Have a nice day |
|
Back to top |
|
|
C5HM
Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Posts: 120
|
Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Irish Murphy wrote: | C5HM wrote: | Irish Murphy wrote: | C5HM with all due respect I started this post asking about shoulder harnesses not the cause of death of Joe. Perhaps you should start your own thread trying to prove your threory. We can now close this thread. |
And you got your answer, no?
A quick review of the thread will remind when the topic expanded to include Joe’s unfortunate death. And that his death is almost inextricably intertwined with the question you posed.
As to “theories”, I have none. Only the factual record as documented in the photographs from that day.
Perhaps you might realize that there is no need for a separate thread, on the facts that I have just reviewed.
I have been a member here for the best part of a decade. More I think. Not sure that I have ever had anyone suggest they had gotten *too much* historical information in response to a question they posed. At least not before now.
Interesting. | I started my reply to you by being as respectful as I could, obviously you were offended anyway, that was not my intentions. As the OP I feel I have a say in which direction my post goes. I understand how it went in the direction it did but tell me exactly what does the cause of death of little Joe have to do with my original question? So many times threads get hijacked and steered in a direction away from the original post. Have a nice day |
How else to interpret your post but as a presumptuous rebuke to me for discussing Joe’s death?
It was, afterall, directed at me.....Your lip service to respect notwithstanding. You continue to post in that same vein...Yet, it was not I who broached that apparently *offending* subject.
I simply set the historical record straight. When that record was questioned, I provided additional proof.
I also provided a link to a cool FB site that serves the purpose this placed used to before the crash. LOTS of photos there for the NASCAR historian and modeler.
Consider those facts.
Consider also that threads go where they may go. That is the fun of the net. That you may not like where they go is just your opinion. You really can’t presume to be the arbiter of what gets posted in a thread...can you? Even one that you start. You certainly don’t have the ability to require people to start their own threads...just because you think they should or because they post something you think they shouldn’t.
That threads may cover NASCAR history beyond the scope of an original post...*used to be* the fun of this place in years gone by.
You don’t seem to be having much fun...though it is likely that you have had the chance to learn some things that you (and certainly Gerorge) did not know about the history of seat belt use.
Interesting. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JCee
Joined: 16 Mar 2018 Posts: 19
|
Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So this leads me to a question I have on the Moebius 61 Bud Moore Pontiac kit. Joe Weatherly as noted as not having used shoulder harnesses due to fear of being trapped in a fire. So would the provided harness in the kit not be accurate? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Irish Murphy
Joined: 28 Jan 2018 Posts: 47 Location: Upstate SC
|
Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
JCee wrote: | So this leads me to a question I have on the Moebius 61 Bud Moore Pontiac kit. Joe Weatherly as noted as not having used shoulder harnesses due to fear of being trapped in a fire. So would the provided harness in the kit not be accurate? | Thats right.. everything I have read and seen Joe never used shoulder harnesses. I used this same kit to make a Cotton Owens version, that’s why I originally posted this topic because I was unsure which way to go myself. In the end I wound up going with just the lap belt. I’m still not completely sure if that was accurate because things I read said Cotton was one of the first to start using shoulder harnesses, just not sure if it was used as early as the 1962 season. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
C5HM
Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Posts: 120
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
odcics2
Joined: 09 Feb 2018 Posts: 283
|
Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
C5HM wrote: | odcics2 wrote: | C5HM wrote: | Photos of Joe Weatherly's body being taken from his car at Riverside clearly show that his helmet was unblemished. His head did *not* hit the wall. It is very likely that he died of basal skull fracture...like Earnhardt and many others. The window net came into mandated use after Petty's wreck at Darlington in 1971. |
Typo, you meant 1970. |
I actually did mean 1971...because that is when the mandated use of window nets began. But the sentence structure was sloppy. So I have amended it. |
Noted! Amended for clarity! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Firefly
Joined: 28 Jan 2018 Posts: 814 Location: New Jersey
|
Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
C5HM wrote: |
...I still haven't found a third part hosting site to replace Photobucket, or I would post them directly. |
I use Imgur now, rather than pay the ransom to the P Bucket. Free and works great!
With much respect to the O.P., this is a classic Randy's thread. Enjoy the ride! _________________ Bill Jobson is my real name. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
67 Fairlane
Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Posts: 125 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
|
Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
C5HM wrote: |
I still haven't found a third part hosting site to replace Photobucket, . |
Doc (& anyone else who's interested) - I use Fotki; the fees are "silly-cheap", IIRC I paid like $2 for the year!
There's also Flickr and Postimage.org. Have no experience with them but at least one of them is free.
Hope this helps in your search.
Irish Murphy: Good thread. Check out those links; lots of important info out there. The importance of historical context cannot be overstated.
Jerry |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|