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1970 K&K Isaac Charger

 
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Mark C.



Joined: 16 Feb 2018
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 4:49 pm    Post subject: 1970 K&K Isaac Charger Reply with quote

Hey All,
With the recent release of the Revell 1970 Charger has anybody looked into building a NASCAR version of it? Every time I look at the K&K 1970 Charger (that I think was their short track car), I can't help but think how cool it looks.

Does anybody have any more info on that car? What seasons did it run in? I have pics with both styles of numbers so I am thinking that it must have run in more than one season.

I was thinking that I may take it on as a project *someday*... any thoughts or information would be appreciated.















Then of course, there's this Allison car...
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odcics2



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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 1970 "tunnel back" Chargers were run in the 70, 71, 72 seasons by K&K.

Whatever you do, DON'T copy anything from the "69" appearing K&K short track car in the Nascar museum.

That's Bobby's '66-7 Charger #37, that was skinned with 1969 metal in 1990 by a guy in Kansas City! He had NO idea it was the #37 K&K, when he lettered it up and made it a #71.

Since that time, "somebody" has modified it over the years to look more like the K&K Daytona, especially in the rear firewall area. Still, the cage is narrow, dash is wrong, bars under the hood are wrong, etc.
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Mark C.



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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice! I'll be sure to leave that one off my reference list!

I'm guessing that the wingcar build thread will apply to this car as well, though I noticed the cutting and flaring of wheel arches seemed to be a little more aggressive on this car than other Mopar B-bodies of the era.
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Dennis O
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is where one of the later chargers came to race after it was sold from the K&K fleet. Harry Hyde had Louisville connections and the former K&K car came to race for a few years locally. This one was not a tunnel back......



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Firefly



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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark C. wrote:
...
I'm guessing that the wingcar build thread will apply to this car as well, though I noticed the cutting and flaring of wheel arches seemed to be a little more aggressive on this car than other Mopar B-bodies of the era.


Absolutely a different setup than a speedway car. Aero meant nothing on the short tracks. It was about tearing through the turns. Low, especially at the rear, and more sheet metal cut away to clear the tires. Take a look at Petty's short track Road Runner from those years, which is set up in a similar fashion.

Cool fact about Isaac's short track car is that it won the championship for K&K. Not the glamorous Daytona.
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odcics2



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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firefly wrote:
Mark C. wrote:
...
I'm guessing that the wingcar build thread will apply to this car as well, though I noticed the cutting and flaring of wheel arches seemed to be a little more aggressive on this car than other Mopar B-bodies of the era.


Absolutely a different setup than a speedway car. Aero meant nothing on the short tracks. It was about tearing through the turns. Low, especially at the rear, and more sheet metal cut away to clear the tires. Take a look at Petty's short track Road Runner from those years, which is set up in a similar fashion.

Cool fact about Isaac's short track car is that it won the championship for K&K. Not the glamorous Daytona.


True!!

K&K used two short track 1969 500s and a pair of 1970 tunnelback Chargers in 1970. (one being the purpose built 'lowrider")
Also had 3 Daytonas in the fleet in 1970.

Man, I think they had the most cars of anyone, at that time period.
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odcics2



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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark C. wrote:
Thanks for the advice! I'll be sure to leave that one off my reference list!

I'm guessing that the wingcar build thread will apply to this car as well, though I noticed the cutting and flaring of wheel arches seemed to be a little more aggressive on this car than other Mopar B-bodies of the era.


Rulebook stated 6.5" from the track, measured behind the driver side wheel, frame rail.

So, that can be the HIGHEST part of the car, with the rear and pass side lower, and meet the rule book!

Clever, eh?

I wonder what happened to the K&K lowrider car!!!!!!???
Who got it? Was it ever sold off? Was it re-skinned to a later Charger?
A lot of time went into that car to make it a winner.
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odcics2



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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis O wrote:
Here is where one of the later chargers came to race after it was sold from the K&K fleet. Harry Hyde had Louisville connections and the former K&K car came to race for a few years locally. This one was not a tunnel back......




It would be cool to have a street car with that attitude.
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Mark C.



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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

odcics2 wrote:
Mark C. wrote:
Thanks for the advice! I'll be sure to leave that one off my reference list!

I'm guessing that the wingcar build thread will apply to this car as well, though I noticed the cutting and flaring of wheel arches seemed to be a little more aggressive on this car than other Mopar B-bodies of the era.


Rulebook stated 6.5" from the track, measured behind the driver side wheel, frame rail.

So, that can be the HIGHEST part of the car, with the rear and pass side lower, and meet the rule book!

Clever, eh?

I wonder what happened to the K&K lowrider car!!!!!!???
Who got it? Was it ever sold off? Was it re-skinned to a later Charger?
A lot of time went into that car to make it a winner.


Cool! I guess it's the "lowrider" car that captivated me from the photos. Does anybody have any more info/photos that could be useful for a build project?

I've never heard it referred to before, but I honestly don't have that kind of intimate knowledge of these cars, just what I've read and seen in photos.
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George Andrews



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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Firefly"]
Mark C. wrote:
...

Cool fact about Isaac's short track car is that it won the championship for K&K. Not the glamorous Daytona.


You bet -- in Bobby Isaac's 1970 Championship Season, all of his wins were on short tracks. Cool
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"Fireball"



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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: 1970 K&K Isaac Charger Reply with quote

Mark C. wrote:
Hey All,
With the recent release of the Revell 1970 Charger has anybody looked into building a NASCAR version of it?
I was thinking that I may take it on as a project *someday*... any thoughts or information would be appreciated.


That low rider was a slick ride, just very pleasing to the trained eye. I wouldn't think it would be a difficult build using the Revell '70 Charger as a starting point There's several ways to approach the rear body low rider look that I've used successfully over the years. Such as channeling, chopping, and sectioning the body. However, I prefer the easy way out, by dipping the rear body in hot water to make it pliable, and then gradually bending it down to the look I need. I also use this method with the front noses of the Polar Lights Talladegas, and Cyclones. I usually have to carve out the wheel openings after doing this procedure. I've never messed one up so far. Oh, don't get the water too hot, and work slowly, making sure every thing is square, and test fitting the chassis, and other parts. for example when I do one of the PLs bodies, I have to also bend the hood to fit the new shape of the front body. Kit bash, or scratch build the cage, and some other race goodies, and you should be good to go. Keep us posted on your progress, and good luck.
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Mark C.



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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info and the encouragement. I haven't been overly productive in the model car world in some time, so it may be a while before I get to it, but in the past '70 Chargers in 1:25 were harder to find and much more expensive, so the Revell kit suddenly opens up a lot more possibilities that haven't existed in a long time. Very Happy
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"Fireball"



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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please keep us posted on your build progress. If you have any old bodies, or unwanted ones, try testing them first to get the method down pat, before starting on the real deal. Go slow, not too hot of water, stop, test fit, and square. I think you'll find the results very pleasing. I did.
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odcics2



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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind that Nascar was using body templates, one running down the center of the car.
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john843



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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg makes a good point about the fact that by then they were subject to some rudimentary templates. I think some of the legend around this car (other than being REALLY successful ) is that is was a Robert Gee body which to my mind always looked sleeker and a little more "swigged up" as I've heard his cars referred to, than most of the others. Another thing is probably the most visible and frequent pic you see of that car is the pic of it in a turn with the right rear suspension under load.
I can imagine the K&K car had maybe the best hung bodywork from a competitive standpoint but still had to meet the templates and the various minimum / maximum allowances.

John
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Mark C.



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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, guys. That was the first question in my mind... didn't it have to follow the template?

Any info on the specifics of this car and what was done to it would be appreciated. Also, additional photos are always welcome!

I am curious as to exactly why this car seems to look better than most others. Appears to be lower for sure, and sleeker also... but exactly how was that accomplished?? Enquiring minds want to know! Wink
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Firefly



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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark C. wrote:
Thanks, guys. That was the first question in my mind... didn't it have to follow the template?

Any info on the specifics of this car and what was done to it would be appreciated. Also, additional photos are always welcome!

I am curious as to exactly why this car seems to look better than most others. Appears to be lower for sure, and sleeker also... but exactly how was that accomplished?? Enquiring minds want to know! Wink


Notice how the deep, rounded rear wheel opening helps to give the car a cat-like sleekness. Compare the last two images on the original post. See how close the #71's fender cut gets to the fender line. Makes Bobby's car look awkward and stilted at the rear.
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Mark C.



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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firefly wrote:
Mark C. wrote:
Thanks, guys. That was the first question in my mind... didn't it have to follow the template?

Any info on the specifics of this car and what was done to it would be appreciated. Also, additional photos are always welcome!

I am curious as to exactly why this car seems to look better than most others. Appears to be lower for sure, and sleeker also... but exactly how was that accomplished?? Enquiring minds want to know! Wink


Notice how the deep, rounded rear wheel opening helps to give the car a cat-like sleekness. Compare the last two images on the original post. See how close the #71's fender cut gets to the fender line. Makes Bobby's car look awkward and stilted at the rear.


I guess that's the root of my question. Was the back end of the car actually bent down a little, or is it just that the rear wheel arches were radiused (and flared a little?) and the bodywork snugged down a little more in the rear?

Makes a big difference in building a model - do I try to bend the body a little or just mess with the wheel arches and mount the body a little lower on the chassis?

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread!
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Mark C.



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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are a few more pics of the Charger(s) that I found on the net:













The last 5 were grabbed off this video I found on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRpfKl9u5W4
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Mark C.



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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's some footage of the car in action with Isaac taking the win at Nashville in 1970:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss__qSDFxFI
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George Andrews



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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notice in picture 2 above, the drip rail over the driver's door has been flattened. Perhaps another of Robert Gee's Personal Touches ??? Laughing
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sentsat71



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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't Bobby win a race at the old Texas Motor Speedway with the Daytona?
Or was that in 1969, not his championship year?

Thx
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Aero426



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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sentsat71 wrote:
Didn't Bobby win a race at the old Texas Motor Speedway with the Daytona?
Or was that in 1969, not his championship year?

Thx


Correct, Isaac's win at Texas was at the end of the 1969 season.
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sentsat71



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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aero426 wrote:
Quote:
Correct, Isaac's win at Texas was at the end of the 1969 season.


Thanks
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john843



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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

something that I've wanted to ask about this model (Revelle '70 street Charger) in general and this subject (Isaac Lowrider) in particular is to get a realistic at first glance result, wouldn't you need to close up the vertical gap of the grill area and trim some? Sure looks like Robert Gee did on Hyde's cars. I don't know if it's the box-art pics from the F&F and street version where to me , the grill looks too tall and gaped open compared to the #71 pics especially.
Someone had gotten a little way in discussing this on the site pre-crash but I'm not sure if the Street version was even out quite yet or maybe had just come out. Doesn't look like it should be a hard fix but just curious to know if anyone had done anything along those lines or even thought they needed it.

John
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odcics2



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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get a hold of an original MPC 1970 Charger promo car.
It was built using original blueprints from Chrysler.
That grille / bumper would be correct!
(as would the rest of the body lines)

I've talked to guys that worked at MPC. It was a very secretive company!
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odcics2



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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark C. wrote:
Here are a few more pics of the Charger(s) that I found on the net:













The last 5 were grabbed off this video I found on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRpfKl9u5W4


Good pics. You can see even the welds from the "A" pillar bar to "A" pillar.
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john843



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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC, one thing I've always done when building a model of any of the K&K cars from '68 on is to smooth out the sharp lines on the car more maybe than I would with another subject. This includes the two main lines that overlap at the top of the door and run the length of the car and even smoothing out the hood and door scallop edges. I agree 100% that the Hyde/Gee cars looked sleeker and really for a lack of a better word, faster than the others. I first noticed at the 1970 Southern 500.(where I stayed til dark poring over the cars and taking pictures) that body-wise the #71 Daytona was in a class above the others. Only saw the "Lowrider" run once at the old Savannah (Ga.) Speedway in the spring of '70. Finished 2nd behind Petty if I remember right.
Anyway, good luck, I've built more various versions of the K&K cars than any one subject I've done starting back with the very first Daytona kit with the R/T scoops and it's been a very enjoyable build every time.

John
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odcics2



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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed.

In the original pics up top, the Allison #12 looks like a brick, compared to the #71 lowrider pictured just above it.
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Mark C.



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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep it in mind when I get around to trying out this project. It will be interesting to try to capture the look, even if it isn't 100% accurate (which seems to be the direction that most of my builds take).
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"Fireball"



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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote]I guess that's the root of my question. Was the back end of the car actually bent down a little, or is it just that the rear wheel arches were radiused (and flared a little?) and the bodywork snugged down a little more in the rear?

Makes a big difference in building a model - do I try to bend the body a little or just mess with the wheel arches and mount the body a little lower on the chassis?[/quote]

Probably a little combination of it all. Just get to where it "looks" right to the eye. How you get that "look" is up to you. On a Robert Gee body car, there wasn't a spot on that car that wasn't massaged to the max A good example of the drooped back end of the bodies would be to look at some of the NASCAR Sportsman division rides of that time period, and even later. They look like they've been hit in the rear end, and pushed down, and under the car. The idea on a short track car is to get as much weight, and center of gravity over the rear wheels for traction coming off the turns, and down the chutes. Keep us posted on your progress.
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odcics2



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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having owned street Chargers, you can get that look by using lowering blocks. (or old, weak springs!)
GN cars used a centered template from the front of the hood, to the rear of the deck lid.

I'd say 'that' part of the car would be legal.

Look up some pics of the K&K short track car in 1975. Shades of the low rider!

Probably the same grandfathered chassis, updated skin.
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Dennis O
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An example of the "bent down" rear end on a charger.......Click on the image for bigger szie.


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odcics2



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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, that's a bent Charger!
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bangor boy



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just want to say a big 'Thank You' to all the knowledgeable contributors on this thread who have delivered a great education on the often overlooked details of this amazing championship winning race team.

The Daytona Charger is the big sexy thing as far as what many people have perceived about Bobby Isaac's title winning drive that year. But this thread clearly illuminates the grittier and more fundamental aspects of what it took to get Isaac his well-earned title.
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bangor boy



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just want to say a big 'Thank You' to all the knowledgeable contributors on this thread who have delivered a great education on the often overlooked details of this amazing championship winning race team.

The Daytona Charger is the big sexy thing as far as what many people have perceived about Bobby Isaac's title winning drive that year. But this thread clearly illuminates the grittier and more fundamental aspects of what it took to get Isaac his well-earned title.
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john843



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bangor boy wrote:
Just want to say a big 'Thank You' to all the knowledgeable contributors on this thread who have delivered a great education on the often overlooked details of this amazing championship winning race team.

The Daytona Charger is the big sexy thing as far as what many people have perceived about Bobby Isaac's title winning drive that year. But this thread clearly illuminates the grittier and more fundamental aspects of what it took to get Isaac his well-earned title.




I agree 100%. While Pete was garnering all the glory and ink with his incredible superspeedway performances and toting the banner for the wing-cars, Isaac was hammering out 1st and 2nds with the cars shown above at places like Columbia, Hickory, and Savannah. Sometimes on weeknights and if I'm not mistaken, usually for 2 grand or less.
It was interesting to me that just about EVERY ad that Chrysler Corp. itself ran congratulating Bobby and themselves on their championship, featured the Daytona in the accompanying photo as opposed to the regular Charger, which the public would be WAAY more apt to want to purchase.

John
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odcics2



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good point.

Since the Daytona was a sell out in 1969, featuring the 1970 tunnel back car, which anyone could walk in and buy, would have made more "cents". lol...
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sccachallenger



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

odcics2 wrote:


I wonder what happened to the K&K lowrider car!!!!!!???
Who got it? Was it ever sold off? Was it re-skinned to a later Charger?
A lot of time went into that car to make it a winner.


On the lost forum there was a discussion about the Pikes Peak K&K Kit Car.
Some pointed to differences from other raced "kits" and similarities to GN Mopars. Is it possible the two K&K kits were actually cut down Chargers?
And of course who purchased the two K&K kits?
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odcics2



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very possible, but you'd need some vintage photos for proof.
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AdamtheWayne



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This car?






Das a Dart innit?
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AdamtheWayne



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote







Now this last one (which may be optically altered) is the closest to a re skinned Charger I can see. Given the long side view.
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AdamtheWayne



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote







Now this last one (which may be optically altered) is the closest to a re skinned Charger I can see. Given the long side view.
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john843



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last car that's in the shop looks like it's the car in the first pic with the flagman. I agree, there's something funky about that body unless, like you mentioned, it's distorted somehow.

John
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FallsCity48



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AdamtheWayne wrote:





Now this last one (which may be optically altered) is the closest to a re skinned Charger I can see. Given the long side view.


The last photo is rare one that I posted back when this notion that the kit car was a cut down low rider cropped up.
It is a topic that I follow with great interest since I first saw references to the fact from someone's Facebook post back in April, 2014....
Later I contacted Kenneth Trout, former K & K crew member who actually does not far from me.
Trout told me that the Dart was an in house build from scratch & was "Harry's version" on the kit car.....

With this said, it is typical that many people choose to believe what they want wish & disregard the statements of the people that actually work on the cars......kinda like the "saga of Poppy Red".

Heck, there's even a person claiming he bought the car from Harry Hype in '77 when the car was actually sold to Chuck Piazza, Marshall Perry & driven by Carl Smart.

I always thought this picture most interesting.... It's taken at the Hyde shop & it has Buddy Baker's name on the roof. Baker's last race with K & K was at Talladega on May 5, 1974.
So the photo is from around that period as I have photos of Unser in the car at the Hyde shop on June 13, 1974.... Pike Peak was on July 4, 1974.

As a point of reference, Richard Petty did not race the Petty kit car till 8-17-74 at Dixie Speedway.
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AdamtheWayne



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VERY interesting story to that car. Now I want to build one!
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FallsCity48



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AdamtheWayne wrote:
VERY interesting story to that car. Now I want to build one!


Harry Hyde had a close relationship with head of Chrysler's “Special Vehicle Group”, Larry Rathgeb.
It was actually Hyde's remarks to Rathgeb one night at Concord Speedway about why there were
no Chrysler short track cars racing that spurred the start of the Chrysler Kit Car program to begin with.
Unfortunately Harry's idea of short track racing program was small paved & dirt tracks
while the Petty's were geared for Late Model Sportsman & the Petty's version won out in the end.
I have a August 4, 1974 newspaper account where Hyde was going to run the Dart at the USAC race in Milwaukee
but for some strange reason Hyde decided to sell the car to Chuck Piazza's car owner about a week later.
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BVAUGHN



Joined: 29 Jan 2018
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Tony for the info on the kit car. Chuck Piazza was onee of the best short track drivers around. in fact he won The first Legends Race at Piedmont interstate Fairgrounds
Bill
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George Andrews



Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 458

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info, Falls City. Wondering if Marshall Perry had a direct relative named Dale Perry ? He was a West Coast short track racer noted for his Mopar loyalty.
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sccachallenger



Joined: 03 Apr 2018
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FallsCity48 wrote:
AdamtheWayne wrote:





Now this last one (which may be optically altered) is the closest to a re skinned Charger I can see. Given the long side view.


The last photo is rare one that I posted back when this notion that the kit car was a cut down low rider cropped up.
It is a topic that I follow with great interest since I first saw references to the fact from someone's Facebook post back in April, 2014....
Later I contacted Kenneth Trout, former K & K crew member who actually does not far from me.
Trout told me that the Dart was an in house build from scratch & was "Harry's version" on the kit car.....

With this said, it is typical that many people choose to believe what they want wish & disregard the statements of the people that actually work on the cars......kinda like the "saga of Poppy Red".

Heck, there's even a person claiming he bought the car from Harry Hype in '77 when the car was actually sold to Chuck Piazza, Marshall Perry & driven by Carl Smart.

I always thought this picture most interesting.... It's taken at the Hyde shop & it has Buddy Baker's name on the roof. Baker's last race with K & K was at Talladega on May 5, 1974.
So the photo is from around that period as I have photos of Unser in the car at the Hyde shop on June 13, 1974.... Pike Peak was on July 4, 1974.

As a point of reference, Richard Petty did not race the Petty kit car till 8-17-74 at Dixie Speedway.
Thanks for posting this, the SCR article suggests that Hyde and company built a couple of Kit Cars. If this is true, Piazza drove one, wonder what happened to the second, and which car won at Pikes Peak?
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