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Salvino 442 body
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Bluesman Mark



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill J wrote:
I am not one that nit picks all the kits that come along. In fact I can't ever recall complaining about any issue in a kit. There are quite a few kits with minor to major issues.

However, this kit has a body that is missing key lines. There is no excuse for that other than a blatant disregard for the customer and accuracy. Like I said, I can replace the chassis or live with it being wrong. I can't live with the body being wrong.

What lines are they going to leave off their Monte Carlo? The Monte has a bunch of body lines on it's sides.

To me, this disregard is unacceptable. I am not paying premium prices for a poorly executed effort. You guys can buy them if you like, it's your money. I am not accepting a weak effort and "taking it". They'll make all their kits weak if we just buy them anyway.

Any job I have ever had I had to do it right, I think that is a perfectly normal expectation.


Posts such as this makes me wish this place had a "like" button! Very Happy
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Mack



Joined: 28 Jan 2018
Posts: 731
Location: deep south

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bluesman Mark wrote:
Mack wrote:
Man o' man, not even out yet and it's DOA. Geeez. I recall building my first Polar Lights Cyclone, it was tricky to say the least, but it could be built into a nice looking model. The Talladega actually fit the chassis better, and the 429 was all but impossible to install. But, It was a far cry better that the old AMT offering. People whine because there are no new kits being made, then they whine because the new kits aren't 100% correct. Why would a kit producer even try? I remember the Accurate Miniatures kits were fantastic. When was the last time they made a kit? Why can't modelers offer constructive criticism and advise, instead of basically writing them off as frauds? Geez, it's just model cars!!! No one can make you buy it. If a person is not happy, FINE!!! That doesn't mean the rest of the modeling community may not give the kit a chance. No wonder modeling is a DYING hobby.


I certainly wasn't "whining" about this issue, & don't appreciate my honest, factual comments to be defined as such.

Mentioning issues with Polar Lights kits, (of which there were many), or dragging Accurate Miniatures' downfall into the discussion is just a deflection from the facts: JR Models got an important component of the kit wrong, then tried to cover up that fact with a blatant lie. There's simply no excuse for that.

You mentioned Accurate Miniatures. I knew two of the principals of that company pretty well, Bob Johnson & Jack Higgins, being as they were based in Charlotte & I lived in Gastonia. I knew them well enough that I was the second or third person outside of the company to see the' first test shot of the McLaren M8B Can-Am car the week they got it from their molding facilities in Korea.

Due to a shortage of working capital, (according to Dave Van in another thread where we discussed this very subject), & the tooling being cut & ran overseas, it took three years before that kit hit the shelves. Dave Van can go into more detail than I can about what caused them to go under, but I can say that when the original AM closed up shop in 2001 or 2002, I went to the "going out of business" they held the last weekend before closing up shop & bought a few kits. While there, I talked with the person with AM, (neither Bob nor Jack), doing the sale, about what caused them to go under.

You may recall that a year or so before they went under, an announcement in Scale Auo that they were teaming up with Testors to do an entirely new series of contemporary NASCAR models in 1/24th scale to directly compete with Revell/Monogram. These were to be sold as both highly detailed glue kits by Accurate Miniatures, (much like their Corvette Gran Sport & McLaren M8B kits), & as less complex, prepainted & decorated, (& IIRC snap together), kits by Testors.

A deal supposedly was made, & AM invested the capital to finance cutting temporary tooling to run the test shots, & for the test shots themselves. The first round of test shots came through, & AM contacted Testors about them, only to discover that the person who "authorized" the deal did not have the authority or permission from his higher ups to do so, & in fact had made the deal entirely on his own, without contacting anyone else at Testors. Testors upper management had no clue of the agreement, no idea that AM had gone ahead & cut & ran the test shot tooling, & no intention of investing in a deal they were never aware of & had never approved.

That investment by AM based on a fake deal perpetuated by a fraudulent person cost them everything they had. All of this was told to me directly by the guy I was talking with at AM that day. He mentioned the name of the person at Testors who created the fake deal, & that person's actions were later verified to me by other people outside of AM. While I won't name who it is, IIRC, he served some jail time over fraud, (I think it may have been this very case), & a few years ago, his name was definitely connected with another modeling company that came to nothing, the new "IMC", (Illinois Model Company, who supposedly had some of the ancient JoHan tooling they got from Okey Spaulding in lieu of money owed.

That's what brought down Accurate Miniatures, not some wild haired speculation about disgruntled modelers, but an overall lack of funds accelerated by a phony business deal. Perhaps having facts, (the only thing I deal in regarding discussions such as this), instead of trying to spin things to suit one's feelings/agenda is a better route to take?

I will however offer some personal thoughts vis-à-vis your comments on AM vs JR, & on AM in general.

AM strove for as close to 100% accuracy & extremely high detail in their models as possible, not perfection, because none of us expect a perfect kit, but accuracy & detail. On accuracy, they did some compromising, some of which was understandable, some of which was head scratching, & not just in hindsight. Things such as the open slots on the bottom of the Gran Sport frame. Never mind that model manufacturers had succeeded in making such parts that could come out of the mold for years without slots to aid them, if they had to use slots, why place them on the bottom of the frame, where they were easily seen if you turned the model over, instead of on the top of the frame, where the slots would have been hidden? Some simple adjustments made in engineering & designing the tool would have corrected that issue. Still, though annoying, that was a fairly simple fix.

More of a problem was the fact that both the John Mecom & the Jim Hall Gran Sports shared the same single external cooler molded onto the body, just below the backlight. That was correct for the Mecom Vette ran at Nassau, which the Mecom version represented, but incorrect for the Hall version ran at Sebring, which used two external coolers mounted on top of each rear quarter panel, & which the second version of the kit was supposed to represent. Instead of such a glaring error made as a compromise, wouldn't it have made more sense to have flashed over holes in appropriate areas of the body to do both versions correctly, with the corresponding coolers included?

Here's a look at the external coolers for each car, the Mecom one first:





As much as AM tried to "sweat the details" & provide modelers with extremely highly detailed kits, as often as not they shot themselves in the foot in the attempt. The McLaren M8B is a prime example of that, due to tolerance stack issues in trying to cram too many pieces into the same plane, & in that some of those pieces showed a serious influence from the diecast community, resulted in a model that if build with all of the details intact, required serious modifying & reengineering to get everything to fit & close. In virtually all aspects of their kits, no matter what the subject matter was, they were aiming for Tamiya. However, they forgot the most important thing Tamiya pioneered, highly detailed kits that are easy to build because everything fits together as it should, due to first class engineering & design.

All of the above issues coupled with the fact that Revell/Monogram had a virtual lock on the NASCAR kit market at that time made me question why they'd even go that route, before everything happened & I found out all I did. Granted, Bob Johnson had been the one at Monogram that got the NASCAR deal going & created those great kits, so perhaps he thought he could make lightning strike again at AM? Still, it was an ill advised endeavour, even if the deal with Testors hadn't fell through.


If you have a bone to pick about this new kit, why not contact the producer? Instead of pointing out all that's wrong on here, or wherever else you feel the need to point out all their shortcomings. As I said, if you don't like this offering, don't buy it. I for one am glad to see a 1977 Olds 442 stock car kit available in plastic. When it's built and setting on a shelf, my guess is most folks that ever see it won't gasp and say "I can't believe that has leaf springs!!". All the rivet counters can get over their sanctimonious selves. It's a free market. The kit and company will sink or swim on it's own. The guys at Salvinos have made the investment to bring a missing link of NASCAR kits to the market. I for one appreciate their effort, so I will support it. That doesn't mean you have to. I can't imagine it helps the prospects of future releases when an upcoming kits gets hammered to death by so called "experts", before it's even seen the light of day.
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Bluesman Mark



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mack wrote:
If you have a bone to pick about this new kit, why not contact the producer? Instead of pointing out all that's wrong on here, or wherever else you feel the need to point out all their shortcomings. As I said, if you don't like this offering, don't buy it. I for one am glad to see a 1977 Olds 442 stock car kit available in plastic. When it's built and setting on a shelf, my guess is most folks that ever see it won't gasp and say "I can't believe that has leaf springs!!". All the rivet counters can get over their sanctimonious selves. It's a free market. The kit and company will sink or swim on it's own. The guys at Salvinos have made the investment to bring a missing link of NASCAR kits to the market. I for one appreciate their effort, so I will support it. That doesn't mean you have to. I can't imagine it helps the prospects of future releases when an upcoming kits gets hammered to death by so called "experts", before it's even seen the light of day.


All I can say in response to this idiotic drivel is to quote your own signature to you:

life is hard, it's harder when you're stupid. John Wayne

And with that, I've had my fill. I forgot there was a reason I signed out of the old site several years ago, to not return, except to browse anonymously for research purposes. It was because people like you had decided that we "experts", (to borrow your condescending use of quotation marks), who do know the facts about what is supposed to be correct about all these various eras of the sport, (such legitimate experts as Dr John Craft, Tom Mooty, Bill, et all), & were here to ensure that such knowledge was carried on & passed down for all to use, were somehow wrong, because after all, your opinion trumps any pesky, actual facts, correct?

I signed back onto to the old site sometime last year to inquire about the trailing arms on the Bud Moore Torino, so that I could get my build accurate & correct, saw that a lot of the ignorance that had soured things for me seemed to have died down, & participated again from time to time, then joined the new site when it returned.

And again I'm confronted with people whom you can lead to facts, but you simply get to think cognitively. Too bad; just like many other car modeling sites, (not all thank goodness, there are still some good ones, & also unlike the forum at Fine Scale Modeler, places where people go to learn & become better & more accurate builders), the ignorant, opinionated & clueless appear to have taken over here yet again. It's very telling, & sadly so, that so many of our more knowledgeable former members haven't bothered to return.

Adios amigos. Moderators, if you wish to delete my account, please feel free to do so, as I won't be needing it. If you choose not to, no worries, as I won't bother signing in again. There are still a few modeling forums that the "great unwashed" haven't overran with their ignorance. I'll limit myself to those places, as there I don't have to fear the outside chance of lowering my IQ in dealing with such nonsense.
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Bill J



Joined: 28 Jan 2018
Posts: 392

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bluesman Mark wrote:
Mack wrote:
If you have a bone to pick about this new kit, why not contact the producer? Instead of pointing out all that's wrong on here, or wherever else you feel the need to point out all their shortcomings. As I said, if you don't like this offering, don't buy it. I for one am glad to see a 1977 Olds 442 stock car kit available in plastic. When it's built and setting on a shelf, my guess is most folks that ever see it won't gasp and say "I can't believe that has leaf springs!!". All the rivet counters can get over their sanctimonious selves. It's a free market. The kit and company will sink or swim on it's own. The guys at Salvinos have made the investment to bring a missing link of NASCAR kits to the market. I for one appreciate their effort, so I will support it. That doesn't mean you have to. I can't imagine it helps the prospects of future releases when an upcoming kits gets hammered to death by so called "experts", before it's even seen the light of day.


All I can say in response to this idiotic drivel is to quote your own signature to you:

life is hard, it's harder when you're stupid. John Wayne

And with that, I've had my fill. I forgot there was a reason I signed out of the old site several years ago, to not return, except to browse anonymously for research purposes. It was because people like you had decided that we "experts", (to borrow your condescending use of quotation marks), who do know the facts about what is supposed to be correct about all these various eras of the sport, (such legitimate experts as Dr John Craft, Tom Mooty, Bill, et all), & were here to ensure that such knowledge was carried on & passed down for all to use, were somehow wrong, because after all, your opinion trumps any pesky, actual facts, correct?

I signed back onto to the old site sometime last year to inquire about the trailing arms on the Bud Moore Torino, so that I could get my build accurate & correct, saw that a lot of the ignorance that had soured things for me seemed to have died down, & participated again from time to time, then joined the new site when it returned.

And again I'm confronted with people whom you can lead to facts, but you simply get to think cognitively. Too bad; just like many other car modeling sites, (not all thank goodness, there are still some good ones, & also unlike the forum at Fine Scale Modeler, places where people go to learn & become better & more accurate builders), the ignorant, opinionated & clueless appear to have taken over here yet again. It's very telling, & sadly so, that so many of our more knowledgeable former members haven't bothered to return.

Adios amigos. Moderators, if you wish to delete my account, please feel free to do so, as I won't be needing it. If you choose not to, no worries, as I won't bother signing in again. There are still a few modeling forums that the "great unwashed" haven't overran with their ignorance. I'll limit myself to those places, as there I don't have to fear the outside chance of lowering my IQ in dealing with such nonsense.


I am with Bluesman Mark on this. How can you say that Salvino is filling in a missing link in NASCAR modeling?? There are so many apparent errors in the body and chassis of the kit, It's not filling a void, it's just selling an inferior product to the gullible.

Salviino is taking advantage of the void in NASCAR kits of this era by throwing together some half baked conglomeration of different things and selling it as a replica. It's a shame you folks are willing to accept that. The next product will likely be just as flawed.
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hemiman_1999



Joined: 29 Jan 2018
Posts: 296

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many of you have the kit in your hands and yet we are going at each other over it being accurate or not, all I can go by are pictures and my conversations with Rick Salvino. When his father was the head of the contingency program for STP Rick also worked for them and saw a lot of cars and got to know most all of the people in NASCAR and other forms of motor sports and used them for a lot of details as well as many other sources. So why don't we wait until the kit comes out in May and then we all see what the kit is....
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Mack



Joined: 28 Jan 2018
Posts: 731
Location: deep south

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bluesman Mark wrote:
Mack wrote:
If you have a bone to pick about this new kit, why not contact the producer? Instead of pointing out all that's wrong on here, or wherever else you feel the need to point out all their shortcomings. As I said, if you don't like this offering, don't buy it. I for one am glad to see a 1977 Olds 442 stock car kit available in plastic. When it's built and setting on a shelf, my guess is most folks that ever see it won't gasp and say "I can't believe that has leaf springs!!". All the rivet counters can get over their sanctimonious selves. It's a free market. The kit and company will sink or swim on it's own. The guys at Salvinos have made the investment to bring a missing link of NASCAR kits to the market. I for one appreciate their effort, so I will support it. That doesn't mean you have to. I can't imagine it helps the prospects of future releases when an upcoming kits gets hammered to death by so called "experts", before it's even seen the light of day.


All I can say in response to this idiotic drivel is to quote your own signature to you:

life is hard, it's harder when you're stupid. John Wayne

And with that, I've had my fill. I forgot there was a reason I signed out of the old site several years ago, to not return, except to browse anonymously for research purposes. It was because people like you had decided that we "experts", (to borrow your condescending use of quotation marks), who do know the facts about what is supposed to be correct about all these various eras of the sport, (such legitimate experts as Dr John Craft, Tom Mooty, Bill, et all), & were here to ensure that such knowledge was carried on & passed down for all to use, were somehow wrong, because after all, your opinion trumps any pesky, actual facts, correct?

I signed back onto to the old site sometime last year to inquire about the trailing arms on the Bud Moore Torino, so that I could get my build accurate & correct, saw that a lot of the ignorance that had soured things for me seemed to have died down, & participated again from time to time, then joined the new site when it returned.

And again I'm confronted with people whom you can lead to facts, but you simply get to think cognitively. Too bad; just like many other car modeling sites, (not all thank goodness, there are still some good ones, & also unlike the forum at Fine Scale Modeler, places where people go to learn & become better & more accurate builders), the ignorant, opinionated & clueless appear to have taken over here yet again. It's very telling, & sadly so, that so many of our more knowledgeable former members haven't bothered to return.

Adios amigos. Moderators, if you wish to delete my account, please feel free to do so, as I won't be needing it. If you choose not to, no worries, as I won't bother signing in again. There are still a few modeling forums that the "great unwashed" haven't overran with their ignorance. I'll limit myself to those places, as there I don't have to fear the outside chance of lowering my IQ in dealing with such nonsense.


Well then there now, have a nice day. Hop up on your high horse and ride away. I'll hang out here with the "gullible". And I will enjoy the new kit. And whatever issues I have with it, I will politely contact the producer to offer any insights I may have as to how to make the next offering better. I'm not going to try to destroy the potential of a new kit producer based on a few pics. I will gladly give it a chance. The market will decide if it's a success or not. And you can think of me whatever you choose, I can assure you it won't affect my day one way or the other. Rolling Eyes
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hemiman_1999



Joined: 29 Jan 2018
Posts: 296

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Mark
Debate is some thing that can never won, just lost. It should not cause you to leave this group just choose not to debate I at least enjoy your insite and the pictures I can remember you posting and I am sure others do as well. If you do chose to leave I wish you well.
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Pat Redmond
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Joined: 28 Jan 2018
Posts: 304

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. Time to close this one.
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