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Tom M.
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Joined: 27 Feb 2003
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Location: Columbia, SC
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 Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| Billy Kingsley wrote: | Looking at the two front shots of Rick Newsom's cars that have been posted....I am not convinced they are the same car. The car Paul posted in the pits/garage area looks like it has been "massaged" some. The nose seems to tilt downward from the cowl, and the grill and especially headlights seem to as well. To me the nose looks like it is angled like this: /
Look at the photo of the car without the hood. There, the nose seems to stick straight out, and the headlights especially look like they are standing straight perpendicular to the ground. That car the nose looke like it is angled like this: |
Is it possible that Newsom had more than one car? We know he had some money as he had a whole string of new cars (as mentioned) and he got by without ever needing a sponsor for more than a decade.
It's obvious that the car took some damage at Daytona, to lose the hood and get that windshield damage. Could there have been further damage that required perhaps retiring that car and replacing it with another, or running another while that one underwent repairs? |
It's more likely the car was "massaged" when Rick acquired it. Such tweaks were very common, James Hylton has said that a stock front fender wasn't even close to fitting his ex-Wood Brothers Cyclone. So if Rick's car was massaged by the original factory team and Rick crunched it then he would likely have been unable to duplicate the tweaks.
That Johnson car that Lee Roy drove in early '70 was the most radically customized Torino Cobra I've ever seen.
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Troy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 2256
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:28 am Post subject: |
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This is the car Dr. Craft was discussing earlier, sorry for the delay I got distracted tonight by some local "lads" playing music and then cigars at scotch at the neighbors...
Hopefully Dr. Craft will fill in the blanks, he never gave me captions...
My two cents, just because you can buy a gasless flux core welder at the hardware store and fix your wheel barrow or the exhaust on your car does not mean you can or should be welding structural welds on a race car cages or body with it. And if any of you guys who own or plan to own a vintage race car and race it, do not put your life on the line with flux core welds, get it welded properly by a certified welder who has a stamped procedure from a welding engineer. It is not worth it. And get your roll cage piping checked for thickness, ultrasonically or drill and use a micrometer. No more than 15 to 18 percent loss. Again, it isn't worth it.
Okay, I am off of my soap box... |
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Troy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 2256
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| C5HM wrote: | | Troy wrote: | | Does anyone know who Jimmy McCain was??? So the Herk/Pedro/Ward car could be different than the Lynn car??? Hmmm... I wonder if the two cars ever raced together??? Okay, according to Racing Reference, Clyde Lynn debuted his #20 Torino May 9/71 at South Boston, and Bill Ward ran the Jimmy McCain Herk/Pedro car at Talladega May 16, 1971 and the second Talladega Aug. 22/71 (gee, can you imagine how hot it was in Alabama in August???). So it is seeming like they were two different cars. I guess we will have to find pictures to confirm this... |
I talked to Tiger about the Herk car the last time I visited with him. That wass a Pistone built chassis. Not H&M. He also confirmed that it was an Indian Fire colored paint scheme. Pretty car, that. He claimed Herk would have won the 500 had not his (Tiger's) son neglected to fill the four speed with oil. |
I think these are two different cars John, Herk drove for Pistone in '70, and drove for McCain in '71. Or did Pistone sell Herk and the car to McCain??? Don Tarr raced for Pistone after Herk in a Ford, I am assuming that car we pictured earlier tore to pieces. |
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C5HM
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| Troy wrote: | This is the car Dr. Craft was discussing earlier, sorry for the delay I got distracted tonight by some local "lads" playing music and then cigars at scotch at the neighbors...
Hopefully Dr. Craft will fill in the blanks, he never gave me captions...
My two cents, just because you can buy a gasless flux core welder at the hardware store and fix your wheel barrow or the exhaust on your car does not mean you can or should be welding structural welds on a race car cages or body with it. And if any of you guys who own or plan to own a vintage race car and race it, do not put your life on the line with flux core welds, get it welded properly by a certified welder who has a stamped procedure from a welding engineer. It is not worth it. And get your roll cage piping checked for thickness, ultrasonically or drill and use a micrometer. No more than 15 to 18 percent loss. Again, it isn't worth it.
Okay, I am off of my soap box... |
Got these photos from a fellow this week who was sent my way by someone in NASCAR. He was thinking about buying the car pictured. Wanted to know what it was worth. It was represented to him as "THE" David Pearson Talladega that won the 1969 Grand National Championship. Quite ironic that, during the same week we are all trying to help Doug correctly identify one purported David Pearson Talladega that was built in Gastonia, that another David Pearson Talladega that hails from that same NC hamlet should pop up again. Long time forum denizens may recall this car was discussed about four years ago when it popped up on EPay. Randy Peterson refreshed my recollection today about the car. He corresponded with the owner prior to the EPay auction. This car is yet another creation of the Gastonia dream works assembly line and was constructed for a fellow named Paul who does/did the graphics and contingency decals for the Gastonia flash (and he does a nice job, too). The car was a no-sale on EPay x 2. It is now somewhere in the Great White North (based on the callers accent, which suggests strongly that he has never eaten fried okra or cheese grits) apparently in the same condition as it was four years ago. Randy recalls this car, like Edelbrock's Banana was built out of thin air and was NOT an original racing chassis (looks to me like the front clip might have been from an actual race car...but that's about all, the whole rear end of the car is completely stock street Torino to include the spring perrches...but boy is that Holman Moody plate is sure bright and shiny, brand spanking new!). One can only wonder what this car (and the other Gastonia creations) will be represented as ten to twenty years down the road. It is a terrible situation for both prospective buyers and those interested in keeping NASCAR history straight. I have no idea what the solution might be. |
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Troy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 2256
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:39 am Post subject: |
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"It is now somewhere in the Great White North (based on the callers accent, which suggests strongly that he has never eaten fried okra or cheese grits) apparently in the same condition as it was four years ago."
Ah but maybe he has had poutine, smoked meat sandwiches or Tim Horton's coffee.... |
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C5HM
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Troy wrote: | "It is now somewhere in the Great White North (based on the callers accent, which suggests strongly that he has never eaten fried okra or cheese grits) apparently in the same condition as it was four years ago."
Ah but maybe he has had poutine, smoked meat sandwiches or Tim Horton's coffee.... |
Could be. Maybe grinders, lobster rolls, rhubarb pie and egg creams, too.
As for me, life without cheese grits, crawfish ettouffe (we call 'em mud bugs around here), fried okra, red eye gravy and smoked brisket (and let's not forget conch fritters and cold beer on a Summer afternoon, either!) would be just too horrible to contemplate.
Thanks for posting, btw. |
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BrittB
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 1249
Location: Keizer, OR
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Pulled pork BBQ sandwich with hush puppies and sweet tea, Mmm! 
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BrittB |
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Troy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 2256
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Ah but don't forget date squares (my grandmothers were the best), Smarties, Crispy Crunch bars, King Cole tea and my Mom's chicken boullion. And Tim Horton's anything... And a little Maritime secret, Moosehead beer... Oh, and fish and chips, I am not even sure the UK has as many fish and chip places as the maritimes... Ya'll have no idea what you are missing...
Getting back to the cars, what do we think about the Jimmy McCain car Herk, Pedro and Bill Ward drove??? Any chance it is Doug's car??? |
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steve hmiel
Joined: 16 Sep 2008
Posts: 29
Location: pleasant garden, nc
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Not to hijack this incredible thread, but way up at the top is that Ronnie Householder in the picture with Hylton at Michigan? And thanks to whomever posted the picture of the LG Dewitt truck at Dover. I have a lot of miles in that truck. It was later relegated to farm work at LG's and was ultimately a rusted hulk sold at the Dewitt auction. |
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Ragtop Man
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 1143
Location: Beverly Hills, MI
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Could be, but wouldn't House turn to stone if he touched a Ford for any other reason than pointing out something he thought John and Ralph were doing that he hadn't thought of already?
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“You're missin' the point. The success of the band was irrelevant - you raised their expectations of life, you lifted their horizons. Sure we could have been famous and made albums and stuff, but that would have been predictable.
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vacadoug
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I know we talked about Bowsher a little, but looking under USAC races I noticed Bowsher and A.J. raced several times together in 70 and 71 in Bowsher Torino's. It looks like one of Bowshers cars has been found and verified by Jacks son. A.J. last raced a Torino for Bowsher in 71 although Bowsher raced that body longer. Maybe one of Bowshers cars? Anyone have a in with Bowshers son to see if they sold one to Newsom? I have not given up. YET! Thanks Boys |
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Troy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 2256
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Man I just looked at some pictures of Bowsher's Torino's and he seemed to run them into the ground, he had them on dirt tracks, superspeedways and on road courses. I am not sure how much would have been left to them when he was done with one.
Perhaps John Potts could comment, he would have seen Bowsher's Torino's race in ARCA and in the Mid West. Also, it seemed Bowsher's cars sunk lower and lower as time went on and the Newsom car was sitting up pretty high. Bowsher's Torino's seemed to have been massaged a lot in house, whereas the Newsom car seems like a stereotypical H & M customer car.
Any Petty blue on your car Doug??? Bowsher's brother Tom raced a Petty blue Torino...
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Aero426
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 793
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| steve hmiel wrote: | | Not to hijack this incredible thread, but way up at the top is that Ronnie Householder in the picture with Hylton at Michigan? |
That's a good catch, but I am pretty sure it is not Householder. He passed away in October of that year and I understand he was very sick during that summer with cancer. Also the attire is too casual for a corporate boss. Ronney was usually white shirt and a tie at the track, never a ball cap. It's hard to find a photo of him without a cigar close at hand.
Last edited by Aero426 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Aero426
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 793
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| vacadoug wrote: | | I know we talked about Bowsher a little, but looking under USAC races I noticed Bowsher and A.J. raced several times together in 70 and 71 in Bowsher Torino's. It looks like one of Bowshers cars has been found and verified by Jacks son. A.J. last raced a Torino for Bowsher in 71 although Bowsher raced that body longer. Maybe one of Bowshers cars? Anyone have a in with Bowshers son to see if they sold one to Newsom? I have not given up. YET! Thanks Boys |
My impressions are that the Bowshers kept updating everything as long as they could. The car that has in recent times been verified as a '70 was last running late model 90's sheet metal.
They did have some 69 and 70 bodies running concurrently. In 1972, they had at least two 1970-71 white USAC Torinos running pavement. This would exclude Tom's blue car. Later there were at least three cars running the 1976 Torino body style. My gut tells me those were not all new cars. |
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Calhoun
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 317
Location: Nashville
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Don't know if this will help, but here is a shot from the 1973 Music City 420.
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Troy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 2256
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Definately not the blue Bowsher car, fuel filler is located differently. I tend to agree that Bowsher ran his stuff into the ground, didn't sell anything off...
If we could confirm that the Herk/Pedro Jim McCain car and the Clyde Lynn car are two different Torino's we might have something... That would make the Herk car unaccounted for... |
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C5HM
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| steve hmiel wrote: | | Not to hijack this incredible thread, but way up at the top is that Ronnie Householder in the picture with Hylton at Michigan? And thanks to whomever posted the picture of the LG Dewitt truck at Dover. I have a lot of miles in that truck. It was later relegated to farm work at LG's and was ultimately a rusted hulk sold at the Dewitt auction. |
Steve: Did you get the E Mail response about H&M VINs I sent? |
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vacadoug
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| The H&M paperwork I have lists Bowsher as having 6 chassis as of Jan. 1970. I think Mr. Craft has the same paperwork. If he ran 6 cars into the ground that would be something. One car is listed as being on a jig so that one was with H&M at the time the paperwork was generated. I had forgotten he had that many chassis until I looked at the paper today. |
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vacadoug
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| Hey Troy I forgot to answer your earlier question. There are two races in 1971 where it lists Lynn as owner and driver. So it looks like his car and the McCain car are different. |
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Troy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| vacadoug wrote: | | Hey Troy I forgot to answer your earlier question. There are two races in 1971 where it lists Lynn as owner and driver. So it looks like his car and the McCain car are different. |
I think you might have something there. If you look at racing reference, the only car that sorta fades away is the McCain car. The rest of the Torino's seem to be able to be accounted for. The other is the BA Torino, but I would say you would have found some red and gold in your car somewhere if it was a BA car. |
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vacadoug
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| The man working the magic in Gastonia re-bodied the car to a Pearson Tallagega. So no paint traces or evidence present. He did a nice job and the car looks great but as much as I would love for it to be that car, such is not the case. The data plate even looks like it has some wear and is a Pearson Talladega number, too bad the chassis does match the rest of the car. Thank god John got some pictures so I at least I have a starting point. John has assured me it is a H&M chassis so I think we may be getting close. The Newsom paint scheme is a for sure if I want, but I am betting the car was making noise with someone else at the wheel prior to Newsom. It is a piece of history and needs to be represented as it was, whether a well known driver or not had raced it and that is what I intend to do. You strike me as a man on a mission, just like me and I appriciate yours and everyones help. |
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33fan
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Peoria, IL
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:48 am Post subject: |
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I should just stay out of this because I am not an expert by any means, but wasn't it mentioned earlier that a previous owner had removed and still had, the H&M chassis tag? Wouldn't that be useful in tracking the history of the car?
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"To believe that we could run that fast in a circle was unbelievable."....... Junior Johnson on the '59 Daytona 500.
^ Entering the tri-oval at the start of the '70 Daytona 500. (GN70 Mod for N2003) |
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Troy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 2256
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| vacadoug wrote: | | The man working the magic in Gastonia re-bodied the car to a Pearson Tallagega. So no paint traces or evidence present. He did a nice job and the car looks great but as much as I would love for it to be that car, such is not the case. The data plate even looks like it has some wear and is a Pearson Talladega number, too bad the chassis does match the rest of the car. Thank god John got some pictures so I at least I have a starting point. John has assured me it is a H&M chassis so I think we may be getting close. The Newsom paint scheme is a for sure if I want, but I am betting the car was making noise with someone else at the wheel prior to Newsom. It is a piece of history and needs to be represented as it was, whether a well known driver or not had raced it and that is what I intend to do. You strike me as a man on a mission, just like me and I appriciate yours and everyones help. |
Hahaha, the H & M cars fascinate me and we are so flush with knowledgable people, normally I can do a little detective work and someone's memory gets jogged and the truth pops up somewhere. It would be nice to find some good pictures of the Herk/Pedro/McCain car and compare it to the pictures we have of Newsom's car and the same for BA's Torino. I was always positve BA's Torino was a hand me down from Pearson, but that 66 USAC Torino sure looks like a Pearson car. I wonder if BA would have any memories??? I hate to mention it, because poor BA has been put in some bad spots with the Rossi Daytona and the Coke Machine Cyclone, but he might remember the Torino...
Another car that got me thinking lately was the 29 Torino USAC Hutch car. Was that something he built in his own shop, an H & M car or a Bowsher car painted up??? Maybe someone might know the story on that car??? If it was an H & M car he might have set it up for the race, brought it back home, re-painted it as a customer car and re-sold it. Would certainly explain the bat wing air cleaner and the Pearson pedigree...
Seems sorta low slung and the grille isn't right...
http://public.fotki.com/gwadagone/nascar-torino-cyclone/hutcherson71ford.html |
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Tom M.
Board Moderator
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 13527
Location: Columbia, SC
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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I had been under the impression that Wendell ended up with the ex-Pearson/Bobby Allison Torino/Fairlane.
_________________
The Dark Side, when cars were steel, bumpers were chrome and men were iron...
"You should never point a loaded gun at anyone. This is not a hard and fast rule, however. A hard and fast rule is that you should never, ever, point an unloaded gun at anyone." P.J. O'Rourke |
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vacadoug
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| The pictures I have seen of the Allison car it was a Fairlane and not a Torino. Different roof line but I may be wrong. That was a H&M car so that could of gone anywhere. |
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Troy
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 2256
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Didn't BA have a Cobra and a Fairlane??? Or was it just a Fairlane??? |
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Tom M.
Board Moderator
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 13527
Location: Columbia, SC
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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The cars I remember from his partial year at H-M in '71 were a '69 Cyclone and a '70 Fairlane.
_________________
The Dark Side, when cars were steel, bumpers were chrome and men were iron...
"You should never point a loaded gun at anyone. This is not a hard and fast rule, however. A hard and fast rule is that you should never, ever, point an unloaded gun at anyone." P.J. O'Rourke |
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