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"The" first half chassis stock car...

 
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"Fireball"



Joined: 09 Feb 2018
Posts: 202

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:10 pm    Post subject: "The" first half chassis stock car... Reply with quote

Would be,... Bud Moore's '66 Mercury Comet, even though it was not considered a "True" half chassis race car. I want to build Bud's half chassis race car, and want to replicate the front suspension clip he used on that car. However, the ref pics that I've found don't show a detailed photo of how it was ALL pieced together using a heavily modified front strut suspension similar to the street version. Could somebody help me fill in all the blanks with some detailed ref pics of Bud's front suspension setup for his front clip? Any info, advice, or thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

Michael
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FallsCity48



Joined: 02 Feb 2018
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael,
May have a few things you need....PM your email address if you wish
for me to send to you.
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C5HM



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud/s Comet ...his first one...was NOT a half chassis car. Rather it was a heavily modified shock tower car. There are photos posted of the details of that chassis on the web. You might check the FB Grand National stock car before 1972 site. Lots of good shots there for modelers. Maybe as many as this place used to have. Bud had Comet's # 2 and #3 clipped at H&M...so they *were* half chassis cars. The reason he did so was that he was not able to get the front down low enough on the shock tower car.

The first half chassis car was the 66 Fairlane that H&M built for Curtis Turner to drive at Hickory.

Here's a link to the FB site I mentioned. If you can't find the shots previously posted..let me know. I will start a new thread there and post them.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/503948376298668/
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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Car Life Magazine did an article with photos and a phantom illustration of the Comet/Cyclone, it was 100% beefed up unibody. That article would be your best source for info.
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"Fireball"



Joined: 09 Feb 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the replies. I'm going to build both "half chassis" cars, and yes, the H-M car was the first "true" half chassis car, however, many consider Bud's '66 Comet to be the first half chassis car, even if not a "true" half chassis car. That is according to the book, Ford, Lincoln, & Mercury Stock Cars. I would like to build, close to correct, examples of both these very historically significant cars for my personal collection, and would like to replicate as close as is possible in this scale the front clips of both these cars. Thanks for any additional advice, help, references, pics, etc,... that anybody would like to share.

Michael
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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The author of that book has gone on record in this thread saying he doesn't consider the Bud Moore '66 Comet/Cyclone to be a half chassis car.
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"Fireball"



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom M. wrote:
The author of that book has gone on record in this thread saying he doesn't consider the Bud Moore '66 Comet/Cyclone to be a half chassis car.


Did Bud not put a '65 Galaxie clip onto his Comet, and add a heavily, braced, and reinforced strut tower to that clip? Don't get me wrong, I understand that the H-M '66 Fairlane is considered the first, "true, half chassis" car.
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C5HM



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Fireball" wrote:


Did Bud not put a '65 Galaxie clip onto his Comet, and add a heavily, braced, and reinforced strut tower to that clip?


No, he did *not*. Comet #1 rolled on factory shock towers that were welded at the factory to factory stamped steel, unit body frame rails. As with all shock tower cars, the spring was mounted *above* the upper "A" frame as well.

As offered, if you go to the FB site I linked to I will be happy to post photos for your reference in a new thread. Otherwise, it will be very hard to show you the changes (and there were many) verbally...and I do not have a photo hosting service since Photobucket screwed everyone over. Your call.
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"Fireball"



Joined: 09 Feb 2018
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud's first half chassis car, and it truly was, doesn't get the credit it deserves, in my opinion. I'd like for both my half chassis cars to be very accurate replicas of the real race cars, which were very historically significant to stock car racing. There is NO strut in Bud's strut tower, and the dual shock mounting is an engineering feat in it's self. I always thought his car used a strut assy, in reality, it was something totally different.

C5HM, thanks for your kind offer. I just don't do FB. PM sent.
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C5HM



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Fireball" wrote:
Bud's first half chassis car, and it truly was, doesn't get the credit it deserves, in my opinion.


Bud's first Comet was NOT a half chassis car. That term refers to a unitbody chassis that has been fitted...firewall forward...with half of a Galaxie's full frame chassis. Bud's first Comet did not get that modification. Instead, it retained its original shock tower and stamped steel frame rails as installed on the assembly line. Bud then modified those components for racing.



"fireball" wrote:
There is NO strut in Bud's strut tower, and the dual shock mounting is an engineering feat in it's self. I always thought his car used a strut assy, in reality, it was something totally different.


Not sure what a strut tower is? If you are referring to current technology, those "struts" did not exist in 1966 in Fomoco vehicles. Bud's Comet had *shock towers* that contained and located coil springs that were mounted above the upper control arm. The car...like all shock tower cars...did have lower struts rods that located the lower control arms front to rear.
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C5HM



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Photos sent to your e mail address.
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C5HM



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, Fireball, Did you get the photos? If so, do you have any questions about what you see in them?
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"Fireball"



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C5HM wrote:
So, Fireball, Did you get the photos? If so, do you have any questions about what you see in them?


Yes, I received several very nice ref pics that were very nice, and helpful. Yet, left me with even more questions about Bud's build of, in my eyes anyway, of the first half chassis NASCAR race car. I thought the street car had struts, and strut towers. It appears to me that the front clip on Bud's half chassis car, that he replaced the strut with two, very unique front shock mounts to replace that original setup. So,.. the strut tower replaced the front upper control arm? Thanks soooo much for sharing!!!
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Tom M.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Falcon/Mustang/Comet/Torino never used struts, which use only a lower control arm and a combined spindle/shock with the spring captured to the assembly. They used the very same unequal length upper and lower control arm suspension as a Galaxie or Impala but with the springs and shocks (on the street version) located above the upper control arm rather than the lower control arm. For what it's worth the '62-'67 Chevy II used almost exactly the same layout.

The shocks were moved from the inside of the Bud Moore Comet front coil spring for the same reason they were removed from the center of a Galaxie, Impala, or Chevelle front spring: Because there's a movable weight jacker on top of the spring and so there's no place for the shock to mount at the top. Also, the racing shocks were much longer than stock springs and they can't mount to the upper control arm like the spring did and still fit under the hood. On a race car neither the front nor the rear shocks mount in the stock location but it has nothing to do with the type of chassis structure that's used.


Last edited by Tom M. on Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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C5HM



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Fireball" wrote:
C5HM wrote:
So, Fireball, Did you get the photos? If so, do you have any questions about what you see in them?


Yes, I received several very nice ref pics that were very nice, and helpful. Yet, left me with even more questions about Bud's build of, in my eyes anyway, of the first half chassis NASCAR race car. I thought the street car had struts, and strut towers. It appears to me that the front clip on Bud's half chassis car, that he replaced the strut with two, very unique front shock mounts to replace that original setup. So,.. the strut tower replaced the front upper control arm? Thanks soooo much for sharing!!!


The use of the term *strut tower* is a problem. It is inaccurate and confuses. Fomoco unit body cars did *not* use suspension struts (suspension members that replace upper control arms and contain both springs and shock absorbers). As Tom notes, instead they used upper "A" frames, lower control arms that mounted to the frame and were controlled front to rear via strut rods that an from the lower arm forward to the front cross member. The coil springs and shocks were mounted *above* the upper control arm...They were housed with in a stamped sheetmetal structure...called commonly a *shock tower*... that was an integral part of the unti body *frame*

Look closely at the photo I sent you that shows the right side of the Comet's front suspension. Note that the spring is mounted *above* the upper control arm (in the cove created by the *stock* shock tower opening) Hence your reference to the car as a half chassis car continues to be inaccurate. In point of fact, the car retains all of its original unit body "frame" structure.

In contrast Galaxies (and real half chassis cars that used Galaxie front frame snouts) mounted the front springs between the upper and lower control arm. NO need for stock unit body shock towers in that scheme. Bud added metal to the top of the Comet's stock unit-body shock towers to create space for screw jacks and upper spring perches which allowed ride height and pre-load to be adjusted. That is the modification you see. Bud added extra tubes to the engine bay... in front of and behind the shock towers... to both reinforce the stock unit-body shock towers and to provide mounting points for HD, tie rod end, shock absorbers.
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"Fireball"



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C5HM, and Tom M,
Thanks for clearing matters up for me. Both of your explanations of the front suspensions used on these cars were very clear, and precise. I stand corrected, and the excellent pics provided to me were also a huge help. Now, I have a better understanding of the front suspensions of these very important race cars, I'm better prepared to move forward with my builds of these two cars.
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